Chinese Champ CHEN Crushes 'Challenge' Competition - & Makes You Proud to be Chinese?

[wenshu]

Originally Posted by geraldc

Yes, China's progress after 1945 count for nought, as the majority of the 1.3 billion populous are yet to have been hugged by a white bird!

Yup, you've missed the point...again...

Originally Posted by geraldc

However are we talking PRC or ROC as the PRC has only been going since 1949.

PRC. But they can't make the hoary ol' excuse they're just a young country, though. China is an old country, with a proud history of civilisation. Nobody was expecting space shots in 1949 or even the Fifties, but the Russians & US managed to do it over 40 years ago. So, with all China's manpower & knowhow (including early nuclear tests), no excuse...

Originally Posted by geraldc

Lifting millions out of abject poverty and starvation, raising the level of the economy faster than the level of population etc count for nothing,

Other countries in Asia did far better than China over the same period. They didn't bleat about the unfairness of everything, they just got on with things. While many countries in East Asia boomed, P.R. China's disastrous land reforms and laughable iron production caused suffering and starvation, with people eating the bark off trees to survive. And other large countries, even Russia, addressed the problems of poverty much better.

Originally Posted by geraldc

what counts is getting Chinese faces onto UK tv, so TV addicted shut-ins like Wenshu can post drivel about them.

This is Britain, not China, so it's a boon when we do get on TV, especially being successful. Having said that, I don't watch TV much & when I do, I can view it on the move.

Originally Posted by geraldc

Here's a true hero, that meets all of Wenshu's requirements. Gok Wan, not only does he hug a white naked bird every week (extra points for not even being interested in them!)

Your points, not mine...

Originally Posted by geraldc

but he also acts a spokesman for Indesit and Aerial, helping out people from all ethnicities learn about efficient wash cycles. Bonus bonus points for him only being partially Chinese too, as that's the future.

Haha, funny clip, but as everyone knows about him already, he's hardly news...

[wenshu]

Originally Posted by manicmanc

LOL come on, i feel indifferent to china but still, you have to give them credit for sending a man into space. what other countries beside USA and russia can lay claim to that??? it's an amazing achievement taking into consideration how quickly they emerged as a super power. they're even trying to build a spacestation, i mean that is ambition, and that is something to be respected.

Quickly??!!! Honestly, are you serious? Nothing special, tbh. It's now over 60 years since 1949, and despite huge resources and the world's biggest manpower, they still haven't achieved what the Russians and US did in the 60's! Considering P.R. China boasted in 1952 that it would overtake the US as a superpower before 1960, it's still behind, well over half a century later! It's only because people felt sorry for the Chinese people living under such a terrible regime as Mao's, that they don't laugh at it for thinking it's somehow modern and cutting edge to be going into space!

Leaders of the Asian Tiger economies said that if China hadn't made so many mistakes under Mao, it would have been the world superpower decades ago. Yet many other nations, with a fraction of the resources & manpower of China, are still way ahead - even after 60 years!

Originally Posted by manicmanc

to me, that is a much worthier mention than some twerp on a TV show.

He's a Chinese guy winning big on a British TV show. Again, as somebody remarked in my defense not long ago, the media aren't exactly bending over backwards to publicize these things themselves. So, def. worthy of mention...

Originally Posted by manicmanc

to be honest i'm just confused because you don't seem to praise china's impressive economic achievement yet you praise some chinese on a quiz show???...

Well, Japan's achievement - impressive. Ditto South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Australia, Canada, US, etc. China, with the world's biggest manpower, massive natural resources and an ancient culture, should easily be able to do it, and it wouldn't be worthy of mention if it had been a superpower for decades. Leaders of other Asian countries aren't impressed, cos they pulled ahead while China was mired in years of mistakes, failure and abject poverty. That they've at last started to improve, decades after the others have already got there, and are now, at long last, catching up after over 60 years, isn't by any stretch an 'impressive economic achievement' in my book - apart maybe from gaining the world's 'sympathy vote'!!

[manicmanc]

im sorry wenshu, but you have a very naive way of looking at things.

it isn't a race. the speed of economic growth was in context with their shift in new leaderships, new ideas, expansion.

i'm not sure how you've developed your views. did you go through the american education system?... i'd love to know about your past because that might give us an insight about you as a person.

[wenshu]

Originally Posted by manicmanc

im sorry wenshu, but you have a very naive way of looking at things.

Fair enough: each to their own.

Originally Posted by manicmanc

it isn't a race. the speed of economic growth was in context with their shift in new leaderships, new ideas, expansion.

Well, it wasn't as difficult a task as they've made out. Other countries had huge poverty and other disadvantages, but managed to overcome them decades before China did. The central reason, according to Asian leaders, was the decades of the 'collectivization' system under Mao, which then took decades to recover from.

Originally Posted by manicmanc

i'm not sure how you've developed your views.

A few of my views developed in the US, many in Canada where I travelled with my brother (pls see next reply), and quite a few others here in the UK.

Originally Posted by manicmanc

did you go through the american education system?... i'd love to know about your past because that might give us an insight about you as a person.

OK, sure! I've checked some of these details with our eldest brother. I'll give you the longer version, so hopefully there won't be so many unanswered questions!

I was born here (in the UK) & we moved to HK for a while. After we returned to the UK, our parents decided that all our family (except my next brother, who was born in Edmonton, Canada during a family stopover to visit our cousins), would emigrate to the US. I have three brothers: one older and the other two younger, one as I have just said was born in Canada, while the youngest was born in the US. The oldest, the youngest and me stayed with our parents. I went to elementary school in Chicago for a short time (though I can't really recall it), we then moved around the US a bit and we eventually ended up in California where I completed my elementary education, first in the north (our parents' friends rented out a house to us), then went South to Alhambra & latterly Monterey Park, where my family still lives today (to try to make it clear for you, Alhambra & Monterey Park are known as cities, which they are, but in fact they're part of a large 'exurban' area - I know it's a word that isn't used much (or at all) in the UK, but there's a very accurate description of the difference between exurbs & suburbs right here - just outside of LA). There's a large Chinese community in both cities: most of the other students at senior high were of Chinese or East Asian descent, and many teachers, firefighters, police officers, attorneys, reporters, are of Chinese or East Asian heritage. I went to junior & and senior high there, and then went to Canada to join my brother who'd been raised there, and we traveled around Canada, to start with for just a long holiday vacation, while I was thinking about making Canada my new home. We started out in Calgary, and it was there that many of my early views were formed. Then we moved to different cities on a kind of 'Canada Tour'.

PARENTS: Born in HK - Living in US
ELDEST BROTHER: Born in HK - Living in US (returns here quite often for business stopovers)
ME: Born in UK - Living in UK (may return to US)
MIKEY: Born in Canada - Living in UK (will return to US, not Canada)
YOUNGEST: Born in US - Living in US

After a few months, our cousin told us that he was developing some business interests in the UK, so instead of staying longer in Canada, I returned to the UK, for the first time in years. By this time our eldest brother was periodically returning here, but only staying a short while, but most of the time in our family home in California. My other brother remained in Canada for a while longer, then joined our parents, eldest and youngest brothers in California (the youngest is still in senior high). I joined this BBC message board, and intended to stay in the UK for a while. But then, on one of my trips back to the US (in 2007), where I'd planned to do a lot of work for the Obama FP Campaign, I was in a serious road accident on my first full day back(my fault: i was so used to driving in the UK & on my first full day back in California, I drove on the wrong side of the road!). Of course I needed hospitalization and the initial prognosis wasn't good: I could be semi-paralysed for the rest of my life. As a result, I couldn't post anything on this site for almost a year. After I'd mostly recovered, I returned to the UK, but still needed recuperative care. It would have been difficult for our mom to provide this, and expensive to stay for a long time in California's hospitals, so our eldest brother arranged for me to return to the UK and he stayed himself for several months, and my brother in Canada came over to provide additional help. I'm nearly totally recovered now, so our eldest has returned to the US, travelling back here when he needs to & my other brother hasn't returned to Canada cos he's still here to provide occasional help when I need it. Our youngest brother is at senior high now, but never been to Canada or the UK. He doesn't like cold countries or rainy weather, so I guess he won't be coming over to the UK anytime soon.

I've always had a strong affection for the UK, and I put Britain before the US as my nation of allegiance. And although people here (not just on the board, but outside, too), do see me as a Yank, over there, many people treat me like a true Brit!

Well - I hope that's answered some of your questions. If I've made a mistake or haven't explained something clearly, please just ask! Many changes in my life when I was a kid, and I honestly can't remember them properly without help!!

[jango]

Originally Posted by geraldc

Yes, China's progress after 1945 count for nought, as the majority of the 1.3 billion populous are yet to have been hugged by a white bird! However are we talking PRC or ROC as the PRC has only been going since 1949.

Lifting millions out of abject poverty and starvation, raising the level of the economy faster than the level of population etc count for nothing, what counts is getting Chinese faces onto UK tv, so TV addicted shut-ins like Wenshu can post drivel about them.

Here's a true hero, that meets all of Wenshu's requirements. Gok Wan, not only does he hug a white naked bird every week (extra points for not even being interested in them!) but he also acts a spokesman for Indesit and Aerial, helping out people from all ethnicities learn about efficient wash cycles. Bonus bonus points for him only being partially Chinese too, as that's the future.

ROFL

You are a legend!

[wenshu]

Originally Posted by jango

ROFL

You are a legend!

Legendarily blinkered, that is!

[jango]

Originally Posted by wenshu

Legendarily blinkered, that is!

Hi Wenshu

Tbh I agree with manic that you views are a bit naive, that's just my opinion.

Actually my thinking was a lot like yours when I was a student, when I got all my information from the press and TV in the UK and the states.

I thought the one child policy was an infringement of human rights but then I read up on why it was implemented and started to at least understanding why.

I by no means are a fanboy of China but I recognise the achievements (and mistakes) it's made to get to where it is now.

On a personal note, you give the impression that it was comforting growing up in the U.S where your schools have lot of asians. Should it matter if there was other asians around if integration is your goal?

Anyway, all this probably not going to change your mind and views anyway.

Maybe take a year out of you studies or career and go to China and teach or study, get some 1st hand experience of the country, get a different perspective etc

ABC's I know who've done this say it was a fantastic experience, not to mention a boost to their CV...

If nothing else, at least you're getting to 'know your enemy'

[wenshu]

Originally Posted by jango

Hi Wenshu

Tbh I agree with manic that you views are a bit naive, that's just my opinion.

Hi Jango

That's OK! You're entitled to your own opinion, and I don't blame you for disagreeing with me. I also agree with some of what manicmanc says, too...

Originally Posted by jango

Actually my thinking was a lot like yours when I was a student, when I got all my information from the press and TV in the UK and the states.

That's interesting...

Originally Posted by jango

I thought the one child policy was an infringement of human rights but then I read up on why it was implemented and started to at least understanding why.

Tbh, i do totally support the one-child policy. It's essential. But that was the policy of a far wiser President than Mao: namely, Deng Xiao Ping. It's the huge mistakes that Mao made (including rejecting a one-child policy), that in the words of one of his most loyal lieutenants, needlessly impoverished China and 'turned the clock back a generation'...

Originally Posted by jango

I by no means are a fanboy of China but I recognise the achievements (and mistakes) it's made to get to where it is now.

Fair enough. Many in Asia look at the years of Mao's disasters and shake their heads in disbelief, when impoverished Asian nations were powering ahead, beating European giants like VW and Mecedes-Benz, whilst at the same time, all Mao was doing was beating his own country's students and teachers!

Originally Posted by jango

On a personal note, you give the impression that it was comforting growing up in the U.S where your schools have lot of asians.

Yeah, it was quite comforting for Chinese & East Asians, cos we were never in the minority. And anyone trying to launch a racial attack on Chinese wouldn't just need their bodies to be seen to - they'd need their heads seen to, also!

Originally Posted by jango

Should it matter if there was other asians around if integration is your goal?

That's a great question. I think that just as our parents' generation moved into an area where they knew they's be likely accepted, I think our generation was sufficiently aware of the dangers of separation. So we went outside our areas, often made friends with people from other races, etc. It was a potential danger, and we weren't perfect, but I think most of us made sure we retained good contacts with other people...

Originally Posted by jango

Anyway, all this probably not going to change your mind and views anyway.

Oh, I'm not sure about that! Some of my views have altered quite a lot after talking to people here & off the boards...

Originally Posted by jango

Maybe take a year out of you studies or career and go to China and teach or study, get some 1st hand experience of the country, get a different perspective etc

ABC's I know who've done this say it was a fantastic experience, not to mention a boost to their CV...

Yes, I agree: I could well do. I know one or two ABCs who're doing that, too. And I know, just coming back to the UK, how much my eyes have opened...

Originally Posted by jango

If nothing else, at least you're getting to 'know your enemy'

Oh, please don't get me wrong! I don't hate China at all. What I hate is its rotten, corrupt, one party Communist dictatorship...

[Clapham-Slappa]

Originally Posted by wenshu

China, with the world's biggest manpower, massive natural resources and an ancient culture, should easily be able to do it, and it wouldn't be worthy of mention if it had been a superpower for decades.

Whenever I feel down nowadays I just read Wenshu's posts and crack myself up!

[wenshu]

Originally Posted by Clapham-Slappa

Whenever I feel down nowadays I just read Wenshu's posts and crack myself up!

Haha. Well, you crack me up too! Just remember that other poor nations in Asia managed to transform themselves by applying their skills to modernization and economic growth - and just reflect on what Chairman Mao was doing to China at the same time. If China had followed the same path as them, it would have been hugely powerful years before now. If you honestly think the Cultural Revolution provided greater benefits & prosperity to ordinary Chinese than the industrial boom in places like Japan, South Korea, Singapore & the US, you'd be arguing against even people in China, who now regard that period as taking China backwards. If you really think the so-called 'Great Leap Forward' or the Cultural Revolution were good for China, you'll crack me up even more...

[jango]

Originally Posted by wenshu

Haha. Well, you crack me up too! Just remember that other poor nations in Asia managed to transform themselves by applying their skills to modernization and economic growth - and just reflect on what Chairman Mao was doing to China at the same time. If China had followed the same path as them, it would have been hugely powerful years before now. If you honestly think the Cultural Revolution provided greater benefits & prosperity to ordinary Chinese than the industrial boom in places like Japan, South Korea, Singapore & the US, you'd be arguing against even people in China, who now regard that period as taking China backwards. If you really think the so-called 'Great Leap Forward' or the Cultural Revolution were good for China, you'll crack me up even more...

You do realize Japan and South Korea had massive funding from the U.S to build their economy after WW2 and the korean war respectively?

And you do know there just happens to be large US naval and military bases in Okinawa and South Korea?

Do you think these are coincidences?

Now take a look at these 2 place on a map in relation to China and Russia (The US's biggest threats at the time) from a military strategy point of view (not forgetting Hawaii is also a US owned territory and a major refueling and supply base for the US navy) Interesting right?

Now all you need is a base in Taiwan...

Singapore is an interesting case, It was and is basically an autocracy, democracy is only on paper. Just Google singapore and press freedom/democracy...

Reporters without Borders place it 147th position with regards to press freedom (with North Korea, Sudan and Burma)
http://singaporedissident.blogspot.c...7th-among.html

But it's interesting they have achieved their economic growth without the need for real democracy... (Famously when a minister was recently asked about Singapore' lack of freedom of protest, his reply was it looks a bit ridiculous going on a protest march whilst carrying a Gucci handbag...)

A program on bbc world I saw also notice the same thing with regards to other 'asian tiger' economies like Malaysia, South Korea and Taiwan. At the time these countries were rising in power economically, they were also fairly autocratic in nature. Maybe without the pressure of having voter-friendly policies come every election time meant they could push through economic policies that were unpopular in the short term but would pay dividends in the long-term.

[wenshu]

Originally Posted by jango

You do realize Japan and South Korea had massive funding from the U.S to build their economy after WW2 and the korean war respectively?

Of course. But those were just two examples. Most Asian Tiger economies, which included Hong Kong, Singapore & Taiwan, didn't have massive US financial support. So the excuse of "lack of funding from the US" was not a reason for Mao to have not even tried...

Since the evil Empire of Japan had tortured and maimed so many people in China (which before 1949 was a US ally) and elsewhere, before launching a crazed attack on the US, it had to be brought to heel once it was humbled by the US, and follow a path of peace as laid down in its US-written constitution. The days of the US not decisively intervening in a country which had attacked the US, were over.

Originally Posted by jango

And you do know there just happens to be large US naval and military bases in Okinawa and South Korea?

Those countries were just examples. There are plenty of other Asian Tiger economies such as Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan, where there were/are no large US bases at all...

Originally Posted by jango

Do you think these are coincidences?

Coincidences that in just two out of seven or eight Asian Tiger Economies there are large US bases? The US obviously wanted to protect a non-communist country in South Korea and ditto with Japan. Putting its money, and its military, where its mouth was.

Originally Posted by jango

Now take a look at these 2 place on a map in relation to China and Russia (The US's biggest threats at the time) from a military strategy point of view (not forgetting Hawaii is also a US owned territory and a major refueling and supply base for the US navy) Interesting right?

Interesting but kinda obvious. If the US had neglected its own security, and those of its allies, it would be pretty negligent, don't you think?

Originally Posted by jango

Now all you need is a base in Taiwan...

I would certainly favor such a move, but as far as I know, there aren't any in Taiwan - yet...!

Originally Posted by jango

Singapore is an interesting case, It was and is basically an autocracy, democracy is only on paper. Just Google singapore and press freedom/democracy...

Reporters without Borders place it 147th position with regards to press freedom (with North Korea, Sudan and Burma)
http://singaporedissident.blogspot.c...7th-among.html

Autocracy maybe (I prefer the phrase 'authoritarian democracy', which I think is more accurate). People voted for an iron hand on law and order and vigorous free trade. They knew what they were voting for - and by and large, they got it.

Originally Posted by jango

But it's interesting they have achieved their economic growth without the need for real democracy... (Famously when a minister was recently asked about Singapore' lack of freedom of protest, his reply was it looks a bit ridiculous going on a protest march whilst carrying a Gucci handbag...)

He's right. Singapore does reward conformity. There's no question about that. But people vote for that. As long as there's no (or minimal) election fraud, the Singaporean people's choice is reflected in the formation of paliamentary parties and national Government.

Originally Posted by jango

A program on bbc world I saw also notice the same thing with regards to other 'asian tiger' economies like Malaysia, South Korea and Taiwan. At the time these countries were rising in power economically, they were also fairly autocratic in nature.

The US couldn't intervene too much in cases it backfired & the Soviet Union then gained too much influence...

Originally Posted by jango

Maybe without the pressure of having voter-friendly policies come every election time meant they could push through economic policies that were unpopular in the short term but would pay dividends in the long-term.

Singapore's former President, Lee Kwan-Yew, addressed precisely this point when he said that, in order to remain in power), his party had to deliver both short-term success (jobs, rising incomes and no-nonsense law & order) and long-term (ensuring economic growth whilst resisting further blandishments from its close nighbor, Malaysia, to enter into economic union or shared sovereignty)...

The point is, though, that these arrangements were both beneficial to the nation of Singapore, and genuinely popular amongst its people, who were given the chance, on many occasions, to vote for their continuation...