Google Snubs Chinese Govt & Cancels Self-Censorship Before Abandoning China

[Clapham-Slappa]

I find Wenshu's response to Tsango's post so frigging funny! I think everything Wenshu claimed are the evils of a totalitarian regime you will certainly find similarly happened in the US (and just about any other kind of regime) within the last 100 years.

[wenshu]

Originally Posted by Clapham-Slappa

I find Wenshu's response to Tsango's post so frigging funny! I think everything Wenshu claimed are the evils of a totalitarian regime you will certainly find similarly happened in the US (and just about any other kind of regime) within the last 100 years.

We're living in the here & now, not 100 years ago. Can you give examples of things happening now on a similar scale to China's abuses, such as mass-starving their own people, or many other abuses of which the CCP has been responsible, in today's democratic nations? I don't think any modern democratic country does, as a matter of course. If Germany, Japan, Switzerland or Canada started doing them even for a moment, you can be sure the agit-prop far left would be the first to claim it's the result of their inbuilt Western evil, whilst giving the socialist paradise of modern China a clean bill of heath (so what's new?!)...

[CaptainCaveMan]

"such as mass-starving their own people", ... due to a drought Wensh! China did not 'intend' to kill its own people like you try to imply... and that was more than 50 years ago and when communication was crap. Currently everyone knows that Israel, a so call democratic nations is the only country that is deliberately 'mass-starving' the Palestinian. Using chemical weapon on the population (by the way an Israeli general was reprimanded for the use of the chemical weapon...! yer right thousands died the bast ard such be sent to rot in Nuremberg)

[Clapham-Slappa]

Originally Posted by wenshu

We're living in the here & now, not 100 years ago. Can you give examples of things happening now on a similar scale to China's abuses, such as mass-starving their own people, or many other abuses of which the CCP has been responsible, in today's democratic nations? I don't think any modern democratic country does, as a matter of course. If Germany, Japan, Switzerland or Canada started doing them even for a moment, you can be sure the agit-prop far left would be the first to claim it's the result of their inbuilt Western evil, whilst giving the socialist paradise of modern China a clean bill of heath (so what's new?!)...

I give up years ago on giving money to beggers so I think I should stop feeding you into a frenzy.

[Bum]

Originally Posted by wenshu

We're living in the here & now, not 100 years ago. Can you give examples of things happening now on a similar scale to China's abuses, such as mass-starving their own people...

What's that all about? China starving its own people in the here & now?

I've put in 'China mass-starves their own people' into Wenshu's beloved Google, and it's not returned anything sensible to me. Perhaps Wenshu will teach us some current affairs that Google isn't aware of...

[wenshu]

Originally Posted by Bum

What's that all about? China starving its own people in the here & now?

No, I'm talking about Western countries and China here and now, from 1949 to the present day. China wants to be judged only on its actions after 1949, and says pre-1949 was 'old China' and therefore has no connection to present-day China, and it can't be judged on it. All pre-49 agreements with China are null and void after the Revolution. So I'm making the point of comparison frpm 1949 onwards, as China says it's the only fair thing to do. And it's certainly true that the CCP did starve its own people AFTER 1949, when Mao's peasant land reforms failed.

Originally Posted by Bum

I've put in 'China mass-starves their own people' into Wenshu's beloved Google, and it's not returned anything sensible to me. Perhaps Wenshu will teach us some current affairs that Google isn't aware of...

China regards ONLY post-1949 as relevant and anything before that as having nothing to do with China. It only takes responsibility for everything occuring AFTER 1949. So it's totally fair to include ANY events post-49 in the comparison.

[wenshu]

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

"such as mass-starving their own people", ... due to a drought Wensh! China did not 'intend' to kill its own people like you try to imply... and that was more than 50 years ago and when communication was crap.

China says only judge it on events after 1949, not before. And the events of 50 years ago were AFTER 1949.

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

Currently everyone knows that Israel, a so call democratic nations is the only country that is deliberately 'mass-starving' the Palestinian.

There's a load of anti-Israel propaganda around, so they aren't. But even if they were, the Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens. It's not surprising if it puts its own people first, as democratic nations usually do.

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

Using chemical weapon on the population (by the way an Israeli general was reprimanded for the use of the chemical weapon...! yer right thousands died the bast ard such be sent to rot in Nuremberg)

Yeah, as if Israel didn't suffer from daily terrorist attacks itself. So please spare me the one-sided history lesson.

And yYou don't serve the memory of millions gassed to death at Buchenwald, Auschwitz and other places to remind them of Nuremberg. That was true slaughter and the most grotesque treatment of huiman beings by a Western power in recent times. Palestinians have NEVER been sent en-masse to gas chambers, ovens or had their skins turned into lampshades. To compare Israel's defence against terrorists with Hitler's mass extermination programs, and suggest any similarity, is itself a grotesque fallacy, and an insult to the millions murdered.

[CaptainCaveMan]

China says only judge it on events after 1949, not before

well you completely put that out of context, very good!

China insisted on that because she does not what to continue 'honouring' the various unjust 'treaties' that was forced onto the Chinese people by countries like Japan and various Western power when the failing empire was being carved up by them.

and secondly as a new government it has every right to do so. eg the Tory has said they will repeal some laws set by Labour.

anti-Israel propaganda

??? everything I said in my last post is FACT, Google it then if you don't believe me! I did not put a twist on it at all, but...

Can you give examples of things happening now on a similar scale to China's abuses, such as mass-starving their own people, or many other abuses of which the CCP...

now THAT is propaganda! Pure and simple, no creditable facts (when picked on oh that WAS 50 years...!) simple accusation with a veil of assumed facts!

But even if they were, ....

wenshu, you spout a lot on current affairs and yet you try to put doubts on the FACT that Israel did use white phosphorus?

...the Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens. It's not surprising if it puts its own people first, as democratic nations usually do.

is that a justification? but wait what did the Nazi do

That was true slaughter and the most grotesque treatment of human beings

oh the Nazi did that because as you put it 'putting their own people first'!

[CaptainCaveMan]

Yeah, as if Israel didn't suffer from daily terrorist attacks itself. So please spare me the one-sided history lesson.

oh do I detect anger? is terrorist ... bad? well Israel is the only democratic states in modern history backed by a another so call freedom lovely anti-terror, 'either you with us or against us' USA, that was founded by a bunch of terrorists! LOL

oh not to mention Israel is evicting Palestinian population from their homes, building new settlements on internationally recognized Palestinian lands! Internationally condemned blockage and effective siege of a population.

and you know what the Palestinian did? they managed to make some crappy rockets and throw it at the nearest Israeli ... I don't fell angry at these 'terrorists' at all but I feel pity for them

[CaptainCaveMan]

And yYou don't serve the memory of millions gassed to death at Buchenwald, Auschwitz and other places to remind them of Nuremberg.

now I'm angry. wenshu you sounded like a Jew! a pathetic one at that!

Nuremberg was there to punish those who committed war crimes. Hydrogen cyanide, carbon monoxide and dioxide that was use then are NOTHING compares to white phosphorous, it burns your lungs when inhaled and burns your skin to the bone when touched.

I serve the memory of every single victims of these chemical weapons. whether they are Jews or Palestinians. AND THE JEWS SHOULD KNOW BETTER! You go around the world playing the victim, shedding crocodile tears for your loss and the heinous crimes against your people and yet you are now the heinous perpetrators yourself!

[wenshu]

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

well you completely put that out of context, very good!

No, it was you who did that!

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

China insisted on that because she does not what to continue 'honouring' the various unjust 'treaties' that was forced onto the Chinese people by countries like Japan and various Western power when the failing empire was being carved up by them.

I don't need a history lesson, thanks. I know all the excuses (some of which are justifiable, others which aren't)...

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

and secondly as a new government it has every right to do so. eg the Tory has said they will repeal some laws set by Labour.

Yes, I know that. Though in China's case, it wasn't just the repeal or finessing of laws, but wholesale abandonment of the legal system & the obligations that every nation makes. Although most countries don't have the same arbitrary timelines as the CCP wants to set for China.

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

??? everything I said in my last post is FACT, Google it then if you don't believe me! I did not put a twist on it at all, but...

I didn't say you did. But they aren't correct...

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

now THAT is propaganda! Pure and simple, no creditable facts (when picked on oh that WAS 50 years...!) simple accusation with a veil of assumed facts!

As I said, well within the period that China accepts other countries referring to - and that was WELL AFTER 1949!

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

wenshu, you spout a lot on current affairs and yet you try to put doubts on the FACT that Israel did use white phosphorus?

No, I didn't. That's you reading something into it again. However, Israel has every right to defend itself, as Britain's next Prime Minister made crystal clear. And if white phosphorus doesn't do the job, I'm sure they could find something more deadly.

In WW2, Britain gave Germany a little taste of hell when we targeted as many civilian areas as possible to bring home to the Nazis: mess with Britain and your people will experience mass slaughter, without mercy. In the US, Pearl Harbor was answered by Nagasaki and Hiroshima. When Palestinians are nuked, or they're sent to gas chambers and their skin made from lampshades, it would be a mass crime, and I'd take your complaints very seriously. But - making an issue out of white phosphorus? WW2 Generals would fall about laughing!

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

is that a justification? but wait what did the Nazi do oh the Nazi did that because as you put it 'putting their own people first'!

No: Jewish people in Germany lived there as German citizens and wanted to be part of German society. The Nazis didn't put their own people first, except those who conformed to the Nazi Aryan myth. If you weren't white, blond haired & blue eyed, you weren't part of their favored race. That means Chinese people like us were judged by the Nazis to be 'expendable', however much we may love Germany and be loyal to it.

Of course, Jewish people hated the Nazis, but many deeply loved Germany. And their first loyalty was to Germany: first, last, always. Not so with Palestinians towards Israel. They've been treated far better by Israel than Jewish people were by the Nazis. But it's Palestinians who would sell Israel down the river the first chance they got. They aren't loyal to Israel, no matter how much Israel bends over backwards for them. So why should Israel show any loyalty to them? Israelis were there centuries beforehand, in any case. Unlike Palestinian people vis a vis Israel, Jewish people actually helped to build Germany, creating some of its finest art, concert halls and opera houses, and they were teachers, writers, doctors, artists, lawyers & architects, to name but a few.

Even though Israel treats Palestinian people far better than the Nazis treated Jewish people, Palestinians have done virtually nothing for Israel - ever. Yet Israel is just one (small) Jewish state, but there are many Muslim ones, in the Middle East and elsewhere - nearly all of which are bigger than Israel. Palestinians who don't want to be loyal to Israel have got plenty of other Muslim societies to live in, and they can move there - those countries are huge, with plenty of land - and the Gulf states are fabulously rich, too. Their Muslim brothers are everywhere around Israel. Let the Palestinian people move there, and set the loyal people of Israel - the historic people of that plucky, tiny nation - on the path to strength, prosperity, growth and freedom.

[wenshu]

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

oh do I detect anger? is terrorist ... bad? well Israel is the only democratic states in modern history backed by a another so call freedom lovely anti-terror, 'either you with us or against us' USA, that was founded by a bunch of terrorists! LOL

You want to give me a history lesson, but it's your weakest subject. I know Britain hated the Revolutionaries who sent the King packing, to create the world's first Republic since Rome, in a continental home.

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

oh not to mention Israel is evicting Palestinian population from their homes, building new settlements on internationally recognized Palestinian lands! Internationally condemned blockage and effective siege of a population.

That's what happens when people have no loyalty. Why should Israel show any to them? Palestinians are unwanted outsiders (they were decended from members of the Turkish Ottoman Empire who arrived too late). It's now time for them to leave.

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

and you know what the Palestinian did? they managed to make some crappy rockets and throw it at the nearest Israeli ... I don't fell angry at these 'terrorists' at all but I feel pity for them

I feel anger and pity. Anger at their attacks on Israel, and pity at their feeble-mindedness. They've never done a thing for Israel. So why should Israel ever do anything for them?

[wenshu]

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

now I'm angry. wenshu you sounded like a Jew! a pathetic one at that!

I'm not Jewish: I'm Han Chinese. But interesting to hear your clearly anti-Semitic views revealed.

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

Nuremberg was there to punish those who committed war crimes.

I know that. I was referring to the Nazi's own use of Nuremberg, not its later use as a war crimes punishment center.

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

Hydrogen cyanide, carbon monoxide and dioxide that was use then are NOTHING compares to white phosphorous, it burns your lungs when inhaled and burns your skin to the bone when touched.

Hitler was working on nukes to attack democratic nations. White phosphorus is niothing compared to that. As I said, WW2 Generals would be laughing...

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

I serve the memory of every single victims of these chemical weapons. whether they are Jews or Palestinians. AND THE JEWS SHOULD KNOW BETTER!

When people have been attacked and persecuted in history quite as much as the Jewish people have, it's understandable that they want to be well defended - and that means sometimes delivering a decisive blow against terrorist attackers.

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

You go around the world playing the victim, shedding crocodile tears

I'm not Jewish, and I'm not going anywhere right now! But they aren't "playing the victim", that's for sure. But the Palestinians are making a pretty good attempt at that, with all their distortions and fabrications about Israel's historic mission.

Originally Posted by CaptainCaveMan

for your loss and the heinous crimes against your people and yet you are now the heinous perpetrators yourself!

No, they're not. They're far gentler to the Palestinians than Hitler would even have dreamt. The question now is whether a far tougher ('no nonsense') approach may soon be necessary...

[Edwina TS]

Originally Posted by wenshu

The US should criticize a country with such a terrible record. And it isn't just the US criticizing China, either. We don't claim to know what's best, but I'd take our our last 60 years over China's anyday. I'd far prefer a President elected by the people to have more power everytime than a rubber-stamp totalitarian one-party Communist state.

If the US's GDP per capita is the same as China, how free & just would it be? This is the relativistic yardstick that has to be applied in comparing their relative merits.

The west had the benefits of colonising 4 continents & had a new start using European technology & the technological and organisational advances brought about through the most horrific wars, so what wealth & the freedoms wealth brought are not separable.

The US appeared to be doing very well when it was running on massive borrowing, massive consumption of the natural resource which it has to dominate to maintain growth. It had the help of cheap labour countries to maintain growth yet failed miserably to benefit from that growth through income/wealth distribution, healthcare & education.

What will happen when oil runs out in 30 years? Or when other natural resource run out? Has any civilisation on earth ever had such a short sighted vision of the future?

As now, US infrastructure has been neglected due to lack of funds, so massive & urgent repairs are required.

Consider, Iraq's 2nd invasion was justifiable because it has a mere 5% of the world's oil output! If there had been no oil, there was no way the American public would support the war. As Alan Greenspan (former US Fed Reserve Chair) testified, 90% of Iraq II was about oil.

And why is the middleeast on fire? This War on Terror/Iran nuclearisation is in effect the 3rd Arab-Israeli war isn't it?

So is it clear that the govenance in the west is indisputably better Not at all!

There is no way that this planet can continue to follow economics based on free consumption of resource. Doing so would affect the future of earth forever.

So there you have it.

[Clapham-Slappa]

Originally Posted by wenshu

Jewish people in Germany lived there as German citizens and wanted to be part of German society. The Nazis didn't put their own people first, except those who conformed to the Nazi Aryan myth. If you weren't white, blond haired & blue eyed, you weren't part of their favored race. That means Chinese people like us were judged by the Nazis to be 'expendable', however much we may love Germany and be loyal to it.

Of course, Jewish people hated the Nazis, but many deeply loved Germany. And their first loyalty was to Germany: first, last, always. Not so with Palestinians towards Israel. They've been treated far better by Israel than Jewish people were by the Nazis. But it's Palestinians who would sell Israel down the river the first chance they got. They aren't loyal to Israel, no matter how much Israel bends over backwards for them. So why should Israel show any loyalty to them? Israelis were there centuries beforehand, in any case. Unlike Palestinian people vis a vis Israel, Jewish people actually helped to build Germany, creating some of its finest art, concert halls and opera houses, and they were teachers, writers, doctors, artists, lawyers & architects, to name but a few.

Even though Israel treats Palestinian people far better than the Nazis treated Jewish people, Palestinians have done virtually nothing for Israel - ever. Yet Israel is just one (small) Jewish state, but there are many Muslim ones, in the Middle East and elsewhere - nearly all of which are bigger than Israel. Palestinians who don't want to be loyal to Israel have got plenty of other Muslim societies to live in, and they can move there - those countries are huge, with plenty of land - and the Gulf states are fabulously rich, too. Their Muslim brothers are everywhere around Israel. Let the Palestinian people move there, and set the loyal people of Israel - the historic people of that plucky, tiny nation - on the path to strength, prosperity, growth and freedom.

I am laugh so friggin' hard I think I may fall off my chair. Is this for real?!?!